Latest MLive Article

[sagspiritsfan]

www.mlive.com/spirit/index.ssf/2008/09/saginaw_spirit_when_will_the_w.html

I would just like to say that I really think that Constantine took alot from his article from all the negative banter on here because I highly doubt that he would ever have anything bad to say about anybody other then certain players.

I really dont want to start the whole negativity thing on this board again because it does get old and tiresome. But a few things in that article really did tick me off. So I guess I was going to express a few of my opinions on here and see what everybody else thinks.

1) Why have some trades not been made? We have a surplus on 1990 born defenceman who have to have some value and a surplus of defencman in general. We have Ryan Daniels at home awaiting a trade. Jack Combs has been lighting the lamp to say the least at Colorado and it appears as though he may not be back. We have also lost McDonough and Zaborsky so our top 2 scorers are no longer on the team. Seeing as were 0 -2 -2 and defence hasnt really been the problem one would think we need to make a move to help our offensive ability.

2) The "Ryan Daniels" Situation. Quite frankly im surprised Constantine hasnt looked into this more. The spirit seem to be pretty tight lipped about it. It really makes me wonder why. I for one would be really interested in hearing what Daniels has to say about it.

3) It seems like the Spirit organization is almost dissapointed McDonough moving on to a pro level. It has been rumored that Edwards told ownership that McDonough was for sure returning. Only for selfish reasons would you be mad that he isnt returning with him now playing pro? Possibly sour grapes for not trading him and getting some value instead of now nothing?

Given the article ties in with losing or wondering when the wins will come in my opinion these 3 things although im sure there is more are reasons why we arent winning. Not trying to be rude or negative, I was just wanting to hear some other Spirit Fans opinions!!

[mccartystillsuxs]

Some very interesting comments from Goose.........

[newguy]

Yes, those negative "facts" he listed really got in the way of being objective.

Again, calling it as I see it...

He talked about the team's win/loss record. FACT. INDISPUTABLE.

He talked about the waning attendance the last 2 seasons. FACT. INDISPUTABLE.

He talked about the fact the league is meant to be cyclical -- lose/build up/do some winning/rebuild (lather/rinse/repeat).... while not "FACT" - pretty much a given that most teams can accomplish this rather simple formula, and almost everyone has in the six years the Spirit have been around.

You have actual QUOTES from the minority owner saying he's concerned about attendance.

I'd love to hear more about how Constantine went "negative" because of any comments on the board.

I'm being polite, and as always no-name calling, but I find the opinion to be quite humorous.

[sagspiritsfan]

Hey I was negative to newguy .. I didnt mean to offend you!!

Im just saying that ever since we started to bring up some of the issues that we think are relevant .. Mark Constantine has written some more negative articles about the spirit and the organization than usual .. I was just making a statement ..

Im not about cheap shotting anybody .. Mark normally writes pretty positive articles that I may not always agree with and lately hes been saying stuff I agree with .. thats all Im trying to say ..

Im just saying I would like him to look into some other issues. I think its a good thing .. Calling out the Spirit Organization and making them honest .. I really do

[spiritfan8]

www.mlive.com/saginaw/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1221574824169740.xml&coll=9

By contrast, the Bay City Times---which usually won't give the Spirit the time of day, much less any PR--leads off the sports page today w/ a glowing "local boy makes good" article abut Goslin. (Sorry for no link, but not available on-line that I can find anywhere...I have the paper here. If I find one I'll post it.) A much different tone than the News, to say the least.

[thepuckman]

Trades don't just happen. Teams need to see who will be back from NHL camps and who will not. My guess is once the situations with Bogosian and Pietroangelo are resolved and decisions are made, teams will start calling for defensemen. Those two are significant pieces to their OHL teams, and without them there could be some holes.

As for Ryan Daniels, nobody knows that he will even be in the league this year. Nobody will trade anything for him right now. If he gets released from Atlanta or re-assigned, he becomes a valuable commodity for a team looking to win now.

As for the article in the paper, the points made are all valid points, and the organization should be concerned about declining numbers. But I have a problem with him saying that if he and Garber don't think someone can get the job done they get rid of them. Who have they fired other than Desrosiers and Papista? And don't get me started on Doug Lidster's departure, which Garber should be held accountable for because he backed the player who was a jerk and staged the whole thing anyway. Everyone else left because those two wouldn't pony up the cash or they had "philosophical" differences, or better yet they couldn't agree on how the team should be run (coming from two guys who don't know squat about running a team and it shows). Nobody has had a chance to show what they can do with the club. He wants more stability, than G & G need to stay out of the hockey side and focus on the business side. LET THE HOCKEY PEOPLE RUN THE SHOW AND STAY OUT OF THE WAY!!!

[newguy]

There is a great debate about whether Dan Haliburton has been good/mediocre/not good as head scout. I'm inclined to think he's in the middle. I feel like if Mancini had come back, Haliburton would not have been retained, but with the shambolic GM affair of Summer 2007, they needed Haliburton just to get them through the draft.

Although, again, everything I have heard and I believe it 100 percent says Garber was in love with Pachis and drafted him against the advice of Haliburton and others.

As for who else he fired, he did fire Mancini but the organization has tried to "spin it" as they often do, that Mancini insisted on still being the head coach.

Simply a lie.

He did want to hire Ian Herbers as head coach while keeping Shawn Camp on, barring another good opportunity for him, but Garber was against that. So you want the GM to stay, but you won't let him hire a coach? That doesn't build winning hockey franchises, my friends.

As for Todd Watson. Todd was in before Don Edwards was in, and not to go over more ground that's been covered. But Todd wouldn't have wanted Edwards as his GM, and I almost am to the point where I believe completely that Watson would never have left Plymouth had he known Edwards was coming. The hatred between the two men is that fierce.

But Garber/Goslin won't fire Watson because they'd pay him out until the end of the 2010-11 season (a 4 year deal)

They won't fire Edwards because it makes them look like they don't know how to hire the right executives, and with the notable exception of Bob Mancini, that would be an accurate observation from anyone knowing what a stick and a puck are.

And they certainly won't let Edwards fire Watson because they do not trust HIM to recommend another head coach.

So you've got the franchise as stalemated as cluster-bleeped and spinning their wheels more so than ever. What is the plan this year? What is the goal?

Every other year there has been one...

02-03 > Transition year. Find out what you have and trade for youth and picks.

03-04 > Use those picks and develop them well (McNeill/Pyatt/Asselin..and at the time Chase Crowder, all were important building blocks)

04-05 > Hire the GM to get you on the winning track. But G&G decided early on that Lidster couldn't coach. The Brown incident gave them a convenient excuse to make the change, not caring that they shamed and tarred FOR LIFE a 15 year NHL vet who'd never ever had a black mark against him. He poked his finger in Brown's chest. Twice. Amazing. It also forever changed the possibility that good hockey people would come to Saginaw and trust that they'd be allowed to run the team as they saw fit. Plan was also to push for playoff contention and be ready to challenge.

05-06 > Vets continue to grow and they start up the ladder to respectability. One OT goal away from a division title and a #2 seed. It was still remarkable being in Plymouth for that final game.

06-07 > Go for it! We all know what happened and it's been much debated. This move/that move. Did we give up too much or not enough?

Then -- some disappointment. So fire the guy who made all the moves. The guy who fleeced Kitchener for Jack Combs, fleeced Sudbury for Ryan McDonough, drafted Ryan Daniels, traded for Cody Bass, Ryan O'Marra, Mitch Maunu. The guy who Tyler Haskins insisted on coming to play for. The guy who took a chance on Francois Thuot, who almost won the Spirit the West Division the year before. The guy who picked Michal Birner off the 4th line in Barrie for that malcontent Mike Brown. The guy who found us Kvapil, Mursak, Zaborsky. The guy who brought in very respected coaches in Herbers and Camp, both of whom found instant head coaching jobs in Johnstown and at University of Guelph the second they left the Spirit.

And now - does anyone really believe after this car hits the ditch and bodies fly out..be they Edwards, be they Watson, whomever???

Do you REALLY believe they could get an elite GM or coach? Do you really think a Mike Foligno or Craig Hartsburg would ever come to Saginaw and have Craig Goslin try and come in to his office in between periods, or tell him afterwards that TJ Brodie needed to play more, or that Nigel Williams should be moved up to left-wing (as Goslin famously did after the opening night loss last season)?

I'm glad there's more sunshine in your life than mine if you believe that this ownership group could now attract proven winners in the OHL.

I sound like I'm runnin an election campaign, but can you honestly, ANY of you, argue the Spirit would be (if Mancini were still here as GM??)

1. Having a holdout goalie who might be the BEST in the Western Conference this year outside of Josh Unice not be dealt already (at least for a conditional pick)?

2. Not having the 1st round pick report? (never happened in previous six years)

3. Not having the 2nd round pick report? (never happened in previous six years)

4. Getting no 2nd round picks back for a deal that took Belleville to the Memorial Cup tournament thanks to Mursak and Williams?

5. Having one overager in camp. Chris Chappell. Last year, there were six counting Perron and Mannino, for some bizarre reason. Why aren't there OAs ready to play in case Combs and Daniels never play in the OHL again?

6. Having a GM and head coach despise each other. I mean, to the point where everyone knows about it?

Trust me -- Bob Mancini, Doug Lidster, Moe Mantha, Ian Herbers, Shawn Camp have all been asked honest questions about the Spirit.

They've all been or are head coaches. Three played college hockey. One played on a Canadian Olympic team. Combined, they played for a total of 12 NHL franchises. Those are just FIVE names.

Think about the honest answers they've given the rest of the hockey world about their experiences in Saginaw (not with the fans, the billets, the players, the great community). Simply the owners.

Would they send their kid there?

Would they tell people to be a coach or GM there?

It's sad. I'm sorry to be emotional but it's sad. I will get hammered by someone for this. For being negative. But to me, it's similar to people who question the war in Iraq, and then get called unpatriotic. Wrong. It's BECAUSE they are patriotic that they question it. Apologies for an analogy about a little game played on ice that entertains us all so much, but I see the least amount of hope that I ever have for the Saginaw Spirit. It doesn't reflect on the players' efforts or the coaching staff's.

I end by saying: I hope I'm wrong about the future, but I'd like to think I've nailed the past rather accurately, if not succinctly.

[thepuckman]

Mancini's contract was up and not renewed. That is not firing.

If you were the GM of another team in the OHL, would you trade for Ryan Daniels? And don't give me the line about "if it only costs me a conditional pick." Daniels is worth more than a conditional pick. And if they trade Daniels for a conditional pick, how quickly will people say "we didn't get enough for Ryan Daniels?" Saginaw should get something that they know will help them, if they are able to trade RD. How many 15th round picks make the team at any point? You don't trade him just because. If he comes back he has value.

Don't ever be sorry about being emotional. And you're right, you chose a very poor analogy. War is life and death, while hockey is a game. And, hidsight is 20/20, so we all have seen what has happened in the past. None of us know what is going to happen in the future, but some of us choose to hope things will get better instead of continue to dwell on what has happened in the past and assume that it will continue.

Welcome back newguy. You bring a lot to the board, in my opinion, and please don't take my comments as anything hostile. It's all an opinion of one person sitting at a keyboard.

[newguy]

Thanks....greatly appreciated.

What I meant by conditional for Daniels was similar to the deals for Maunu and Ryan Garlock with Windsor.

If he sticks and doesn't come back to junior (15th rounder or nothing)

If he comes back -- (trade him for a forward and a 3rd round pick).

I believe Garlock and Maunu were each worth a 2nd...but they only had to pay one 2nd out given that Garlock never came back from the AHL.

Someone can correct me, I'm sure on the exact specifics.

[Sparky]

Newguy, while I too am getting a bit tired of "more of the same" about G&G, I completely agree with your post and I'm glad someone finally brought this to light (maybe someone had and I didn't see it)

"He did want to hire Ian Herbers as head coach while keeping Shawn Camp on, barring another good opportunity for him, but Garber was against that. So you want the GM to stay, but you won't let him hire a coach? That doesn't build winning hockey franchises, my friends."

This hits the nail squarely on the head!

Bob Mancini was the biggest hope this team has ever had to go anywhere and it will take a lot of money and possibly new owners to lure someone of his calibre into the GM spot in the future.

G&G are both great men and personal friends, but I do not agree with a lot of their management skills when it comes to hockey.