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Post by jrp0629 on Oct 5, 2008 14:15:00 GMT -5
I know its still early but, I think everyone has noticed the attendance is WAY down from previous years. Who thinks the Saginaw Spirit will NOT be around the area in the next 5 or 6 years? Has anybody also noticed the game day promotions or "skits" and the girls doing them this year are a complete joke and embarrassment to the Spirit organization? Not trying to be negative here, I just want to get everyones take on these few things.
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Post by newguy on Oct 5, 2008 14:45:46 GMT -5
I'm not afraid to speak my mind, so I admire you for doing the same.
Yes - I think we'll still have a team here. It's hard to lose money in the OHL because player salaries are a non-issue. There really aren't any.
Attendance is going to suffer this year. Badly. It's as much to do with a mediocre product and "more of the same" as it is to do with the economy. But that's what I predicted the start of the year, and many are quick, and correctly so to point out - don't judge crowds by how they are in September and October.
There is a ton of other sports distractions going on, locally and on TV. But that's my roundabout way of saying, if you suddenly think that 4300 people or so will start showing up for a non-contender starting in December, again with the economic woes, you're dreaming in technicolor.
As for the skits, I don't want to slam anybody untowardly with the organization. I only do it when I feel it's deserved.
You can count it down of the quality people who for one reason or another in the last 3 years have CHOSEN to depart this organization.
Ian Ellis
Cameron Knowles
Lisa Bluew
Greg Brady
Jim Biewer
Bryan Burnstein
All brought something different to the table. Gameday operations aren't the same -- Ian and Jim were both excellent at it. In my opinion, the person handling it now has far less "competency" to do so.
The radio broadcasts used to be top-notch, both play-by-play and color. I think we can concur, they are no longer considered such, and became a complete and utter laughingstock around the OHL with the arrival of Fic.
I can't speak to who has replaced Lisa or the new trainer, but both were of the highest-quality people you'd want to meet, and both of them got sick of the circus.
So I feel bad for some of the people left behind, but in many cases, those who made this bed must lie in it. And empty seats and lost revenue will be big factors. Richard Garber is a man I respect. I think he needs to take control of his franchise and clear some people out, some of whom are doing more harm than good. You don't have to be a mindreader to know who I might be referring to.
But it'd be awful for this area to lose this team, because I think it's this community's last crack at a respectable hockey league trying it out. And things are much darker economically than they were six years ago. Remember also - Richard Garber bought this team when his American dollars were each worth pretty close to 1.50 CDN. Not the case anymore, is it?
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Post by acwright84 on Oct 5, 2008 14:58:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about based on past posts of yours, but how can you possibly blame this person for front office people leaving and this organization being considered a "circus". hes only been here a year. Brady left before that fic was hired before him this makes no sense. All of those moves were made by garber himself so he and no one else is to blame.
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Post by newguy on Oct 5, 2008 15:16:38 GMT -5
Wrong guess. But he hasn't helped.
And Don Edwards was hired months before Terry Ficcarelli was. So wrong there also.
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Post by acwright84 on Oct 5, 2008 15:29:53 GMT -5
ok well the only one left is goslin but he doesn't make a decision without garbers ok so they might as well be one person. It still comes back to the man on top. No matter what anyone does he has the final say so.
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Post by bpfox on Oct 5, 2008 15:53:20 GMT -5
Ian Ellis Cameron Knowles Lisa Bluew Greg Brady Jim Biewer Bryan Burnstein All brought something different to the table. Gameday operations aren't the same -- Ian and Jim were both excellent at it. In my opinion, the person handling it now has far less "competency" to do so. You will not get an arguement from me here. But keep in mind, each and every one of these listed people moved on to better jobs. That's a credit to the organization. After all, this is a developmental league for off ice folks as well. That said, the Spirit should have understood the strength of the off ice part of the business and replaced those folks with people of equal talent. For the most part that has not happened and it shows I think this is a pretty unfair statement. Number one, Lindsay McDougal took over for Lisa and is a top notch replacement. Lisa, by the way, is still with the Garber Management Group so it's not accurate to say she was tired of the circus. Since Bryan Burnstein left the Spirit to join the circus I guess it's fair to say he wasn't tired of the circus either.  Don't worry too much for Richard Garber. The team he paid 2 million US for is probably worth three times that now. That said, I don't see him selling it any time soon. |
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Post by newguy on Oct 5, 2008 15:56:59 GMT -5
I have met Lindsay before. She's top-notch. My statement didn't suggest that her replacement or Bryan's weren't up to snuff. But good points by you.
I don't see him selling either, which is why I think the team stays.
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Post by teamspirit08 on Oct 5, 2008 16:32:53 GMT -5
Maybe this title should read "Attendance and other U.S.-based OHL teams futures...."
Last year the Whalers drew an average of 2,674 fans over their first three home games.
This year they have drawn an average of just 2,002 over their first three home games.
Last year the Erie Otters drew an average of 4,319 over their first three home games.
This year the Otters have drawn an average of only 3,662 over their first three home games.
Last year the Spirit drew an average of 3,534 over their first three home games.
This year the Spirit have drawn an average of 3,168 over their first three home games.
If my abacus is working correctly, this means the following
Plymouth Whalers - attedance down 25.1%
Erie Otters - attendance down 15.2%
Meanwhile the "hard done by" Spirit have only seen a 10.4% drop.
Looks like the Spirit's attendance is the least of their worries!
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Post by SaginawGensFan on Oct 5, 2008 18:16:28 GMT -5
Maybe this title should read "Attendance and other U.S.-based OHL teams futures...." Last year the Whalers drew an average of 2,674 fans over their first three home games. This year they have drawn an average of just 2,002 over their first three home games. Last year the Erie Otters drew an average of 4,319 over their first three home games. This year the Otters have drawn an average of only 3,662 over their first three home games. Last year the Spirit drew an average of 3,534 over their first three home games. This year the Spirit have drawn an average of 3,168 over their first three home games. If my abacus is working correctly, this means the following Plymouth Whalers - attedance down 25.1% Erie Otters - attendance down 15.2% Meanwhile the "hard done by" Spirit have only seen a 10.4% drop. Looks like the Spirit's attendance is the least of their worries! GREAT post! That was what I was going to look into as well... I think we have that thread each year about the "panic" over the small crowds at the start of the season. I was waiting for this one to pop up again. Anyway, considering the economy, I would say that a 10.4% drop is not too bad. |
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Post by igive2 on Oct 5, 2008 20:18:42 GMT -5
Last year the Whalers drew an average of 2,674 fans over their first three home games. This year they have drawn an average of just 2,002 over their first three home games. Plymouth Whalers - attedance down 25.1% Didn't someone say earlier this summer that the person who wrote the stories on the team down in Plymouth should concentrate on selling tickets??? With a 25% drop, it appears the added "press" hasn't helped so far. |
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Post by newguy on Oct 5, 2008 20:29:03 GMT -5
Perhaps, but the Karmanos money has that franchise very stable.
And Mike Vellucci's been there forever. That also means stability.
I know what you're saying, but it brings up glass houses and stones.
The Spirit have always had that envy about Plymouth, and they should. It's something to shoot for and strive for. But the fact that Peter Karmanos is seen and not heard should be a valuable lesson. All it's done in the last 3 years is pull in a Stanley Cup and an OHL championship.
They've got a lot tougher market to sell tickets in than Saginaw does. There's loads of competition, so again, they do everything they can to get positive press and publicity, but it's hard to pull it off in that loaded market. Saginaw doesn't have the same excuse.
Saginaw has a much much better atmosphere to watch a game in, and despite the current complaints (valid on many fronts), the off-ice entertainment factor in Saginaw makes things more fan-friendly as well.
I'd rather have the wins and the banners. And Plymouth again, has the talent and the word-of-mouth to pull kids and develop them that Saginaw has no chance to under the current circumstances.
Blue-chippers at 15 or 16 years of age, if given the choice between playing for the Whalers in the Metro Detroit market with way more scouts around, and stable management....VERSUS...well, I won't repeat myself....
Whalers win hands-down, until the Spirit get back the credibility and good name that was built up between 2005 and 2007.
Plymouth is a winning "program". It's everything the Spirit told us they'd be in 2002, and have yet to become. I hope that changes.
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Post by teamspirit08 on Oct 5, 2008 21:12:23 GMT -5
Blue-chippers at 15 or 16 years of age, if given the choice between playing for the Whalers in the Metro Detroit market with way more scouts around, and stable management....VERSUS...well, I won't repeat myself.... If that's the case, then why over the past two NHL Drafts, Saginaw has had 3 kids drafted to the NHL and Plymouth 3? If you want to split hairs, add Torquato who spent 1.5 out of 2 two years prior to the NHL draft with Saginaw as well. Oh, and why does a remote city like S.S. Marie that is about 4 hours north of Saginaw still have numerous kids picked each year? |
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Post by newguy on Oct 5, 2008 22:15:31 GMT -5
Fair question in some ways. The Whalers took Nick Petrecki in the 1st round in 2005, when Saginaw took Torquato. It's been well-documented Garber wanted to take Petrecki, and Mancini insisted he would snub them and stick with his NCAA dream.
He did just that, and went to Boston College and went 1st round to the San Jose Sharks in 2007. Plymouth gambled and lost but they had the depth that they could afford to.
As for the Whalers, I mean, they're in a different ballpark for all the NHLers they've turned out in the last several years.
I LOVED a lot of our players but it has hurt us not having a steady NHLer yet.
Listen, Plymouth has been in "Plymouth" for 11 years now. If we can in the next five put a list like this into the NHL, then we can talk about the Whalers and Spirit in the same paragraph, let alone sentence:
David Legwand
Stephen Weiss
Chad Larose
James Wiesniewski
Jared Boll
Justin Williams
Paul Mara
Harold Druken
and soon to be:
John Mitchell
Michal Neuvirth
Daniel Ryder (now that he's playing again)
Jeremy Smith
Chris Terry
8 regular NHLers...some close to stardom, others are just there.
5 more very good prospects in their respective organizations, with Terry and Neuvirth having the most potential to be stars.
As for Saginaw...
If you want to claim Chris Thorburn, you can. The Spirit inherited him, he played 37 games for Saginaw, and counting playoffs, played 45 for Plymouth - in fairness, it should be considered a "wash". But I'll let "The Spirit" claim him instead of Plymouth.
After that - Saginaw players w/ regard to the NHL
Pyatt > might be an NHLer -- I'd have been shocked saying "might" 2 years ago, but now I'm worried
McNeill > no one says so anymore. I'd love to see him get his shot, but he may not be complete enough
Zaborsky > unlikely
Birner > unlikely -- and I thought he had the chance to...
Mursak > maybe the best chance to play
Kvapil > no chance now
Platt > 46 NHL games, now in Finland, you can make the argument that getting to play in Erie with guys like O'Marra and Blunden helped him get there as much if not more than his time in Saginaw...tough to claim him, but again - feel free
Bissonnette > maybe he catches on - very borderline, if he does
Corrente > I guess he will. Next year, potentially. We'll see. I'm skeptical about what he'll do in the NHL
O'Marra > AHLer -- maybe that will change
Nigel Williams > I do think he'll make it up at some point
But I hate to belabor the point, but you forced me to.
Plymouth put EIGHT very solid NHLers in during 11 years.
We could claim ONE right now in Thorburn.
I won't even start with the seven West Division titles, and the 3 OHL Finals, and the Mem Cup appearance.
The programs simply aren't comparable. Come on.
The OHL is cyclical. Extremely so. The Whalers are in a down cycle because they spent a lot in picks and prospects to win the 2007 OHL championship and go to the Memorial Cup.
On that 2007 team they had an awful lot of NHL-drafted players.
Take a guess.
THIRTEEN.
Thirteen NHL-drafted or about-to-be NHL drafted players, plus a few more like Steve Ward and Andrew Fournier who are fixtures now with AHL clubs. Thus, using the last 2 NHL drafts as some kind of criteria for who's developing talent and where the best players really want to play, I'm sorry, I just don't see that as having any scope of validity.
As for the Sault, they have a very wide-talent pool of Northern Ontario kids who know the organization will treat them well. The Hounds have put TONS of their players into the NHL. They have a rabid fan base, and yes, more rabid than Saginaw. Ownership lets management do their job. Geography has little to do with it, in fact, their isolation can work to their advantage.
And if a kid like Eric Lindros did, decides not to report, they can move him and get a bidding war going to get what they feel is a fair price back.
You may have misunderstood. Saginaw's "issues" don't have as much to do with geography (although it is a factor) as their instability and lack of consistency have been. Yes, some kids and parents don't want their Canadian-born kids being schooled in the USA, and the same is probably true in many cases vice-versa.
If your program is a "winner" matters. If your team goes to an OHL final or even a conference final every 4-5 years or so, and yes, your players occasionally play in the NHL, then that's what matters most.
Saginaw's not considered as such. I wish they were. They aren't. Let's be realistic. That is allowed here, so I was led to believe. And part of that is the youth of the franchise. I'm totally willing to accept that it's ONLY been six years as a defence for many things. But 2 playoff games won, 4 general managers (soon to be 5 sooner than you can possibly imagine), 5 head coaches, and potentially (hopefully not) 4 years of 7 out of the playoffs isn't exactly the rose garden that was promised.
Some might call it a considerable disappointment. Some. Others are just happy there's hockey, and for that, ownership thanks you.
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Post by newfan77 on Oct 6, 2008 0:23:28 GMT -5
Perhaps more people would come if things were cheaper, too. Sorry, but $3 for a pop?? Not for me. I bought a 6 pack 24 oz bottles last night cheaper than that!! A pretzel with cheese (which are both usually cold) $3.50? Not for me either. And those were the only reasonably priced things I ever got. Oh, and a program is now $5.00!!! Absolutely stupid. And the inserts only have the players points info in them, no other stats to compare against each other. The OHL standings I noticed weren't even up to date Saturday night! Then, what about people that are disabled? Can't get a ticket unless you wanna pay for the lower level cause that is the only accessible area. I hate the group events that can only reserve an end section. I can't save by joining them because I'm nearsighted and can't see to the center of the ice from there! And that is WITH my glasses on. How about that "new" bazooka for t-shirts. Same one we had end of last year. First use this season, Saturday night, and it worked for what, 2 shirts? And still shooting shirts in the same few sections. Last year if you didn't sit in top level, no chance for one. This year if you aren't in executive or lower level, no chance for one. Time to distribute a little more evenly.
I feel better now that I have complained a little. Hope someone else feels the same as I do.
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Post by teamspirit08 on Oct 6, 2008 6:39:28 GMT -5
newguy, you need to compare apples to apples.
The Plymouth franchise started in 1990 as the Detroit Ambassadors - not in 1997 when they became "Plymouth". Karmanos bought the expansion franchise in 1990.
The Saginaw Spirit have had 6 full years in the OHL.
After 6 years in the OHL, the Ambassadors-Jr. Wings-Whalers' franchise had a whopping total of 3 of their "original" players play in the NHL and two of them (Pat Peake and Todd Harvey) were the 1st overall picks in the OHL draft - the other was Derek Wilkinson was traded to Belleville mid-way through his career.
So far after 6 years, the Spirit haven't had any of their "original" players (i.e. drafted into the OHL, played, drafted/signed into the NHL etc.), however, I believe guys like Pyatt, Mursak, Corrente, etc. will all get their chance in the near future.
If the Spirit have inferior numbers compared to Plymouth after 17-18 years in the league, then your point is taken - so far when comparing the first six years of the franchise to Detroit/Plymouth's first six as a franchise - the difference is minimal to say the least.
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