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Post by newguy on Oct 7, 2008 12:47:31 GMT -5
I like Richard Garber a lot. Who wouldn't upon meeting him?
And I'm glad you distinguished that he has a lot of morals and ethics on the business side of things, because his personal life, is absolutely none of our business. It isn't.
But...
Why are they offering Ryan McDonough 50 grand for this season to come back and play for the Spirit?
Do you have a good answer to that, Sparky?
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Post by hockeymaestro on Oct 7, 2008 13:18:28 GMT -5
Are there actually any specific rules as to what a team can give a player? If so, can someone please post them.
Hey Sparky. I'm sure when Stamkos played for Sarnia he was getting $50 bucks a week. Do you really think the deal Tavares has with Oshawa is the same as what Saad was offered by the Spirit!
I'm sure those two teams feel they got a good return on their investment being sold out every night?
Maybe we too need to start investing in the Franchise!
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Post by SaginawGensFan on Oct 7, 2008 14:13:45 GMT -5
Why are they offering Ryan McDonough 50 grand for this season to come back and play for the Spirit? While I do not doubt you (your sources seem to be spot on), I have never seen this confirmed anywhere (nor will we), so it has to be technically considered rumor. I do have to say, that I have never necessarily "disagreed" with you about your thoughts & opinions (I actually am pretty close to feeling the same way), my only complaint was your "delivery" of your opinions. |
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Post by newguy on Oct 7, 2008 15:02:26 GMT -5
I appreciate that, SGF..and I thanked you privately, and I thank you publicly for noting I'm not here to spread inaccurate information.
There has been an offer made to McDonough through his agent to pay him a total of 50 grand in installments to leave Red Bull and come back and be the third OA for the Spirit.
I know, not you, SGF -- but others....are telling me I'm full of crap because I won't name my source. But come on, how do some of you people think news gets made. How do you think stories get broken. I don't work in journalism or the media but let's be serious, I'm not spreading crap, and I'm not giving up my sources.
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Post by Sparky on Oct 7, 2008 15:07:40 GMT -5
I like Richard Garber a lot. Who wouldn't upon meeting him? And I'm glad you distinguished that he has a lot of morals and ethics on the business side of things, because his personal life, is absolutely none of our business. It isn't. But... Why are they offering Ryan McDonough 50 grand for this season to come back and play for the Spirit? Do you have a good answer to that, Sparky? As mentioned above, I had no idea that was offered. Maybe Don offered it and just another reason he got canned? Maybe there are different rules for OA's since they filled their OHL commitment and can turn pro? I know that as of the mid to late nineties an OHL player could only negotiate his college package (and that's the way it should be) Over the years I think the rules have not been enforced as much or there are loop holes. Mr Blair told me back on '03 that the black and white of what a team can offer a player is rapidly becoming gray. If the league says you can buy a player a car, give him $50g's, fly his family in for every game then fine, I say that Garber get up to speed with the rest of the league and do it, but I just don't think those things are allowed by the league. If anyone can straighten me out on this, please do, but I need hard facts, not just opinions or rumors of what sarnia may have done to get Stamkos. After all folks, even though the NCAA sees these kids as professionals, they are supposed to be armatures in development. One more thing, I don't think Garber would hesitate to step up and put $$ on the table to bring in good talent, if it were allowed by the league. |
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Post by spiritfan8 on Oct 7, 2008 16:22:10 GMT -5
Not to change the subject, which is fascinating, but I have to comment on the absolutely echoing silence regarding Edwards with which the Spirit announced their newest arrangement.
Not a "thanks" or a "wish him well", even as a matter of form. I'm not sure I've seen anything like that before (even the Oakville Blades went through those motions when they axed him). If anyone was doubting how deeply Edwards burned bridges, Goslin's comments should certainly put those doubts to rest.
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Post by newguy on Oct 7, 2008 16:45:54 GMT -5
The Spirit should be commended on how they handled this.
Maybe Goslin's coming around. Doing things THEIR way hasn't worked for the most part. Interfering hasn't worked for the most part, either.
Mancini had some degree of being able to call his own shots, and it cost him his existence there.
And spiritfan is right. This organization NEVER EVER hammers anybody on their way out publicly. This does tell you how despicable Edwards behaved in every context, undermining a hard-working coach on every turn.
Having said that, they privately crapped all over Lidster every chance they got after hanging him out to dry. It was deplorable. Simply disgusting what they did to him. They're earning points back from 4 years ago in the last 48 hours.
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Post by Frogger1 on Oct 7, 2008 17:18:31 GMT -5
now we are back to the same problem we had with mancini one man with more responsibility than any one man is capable of. But i'm sure you think mancini was successful he was here 2 1/2 years and had easily the best team talentwise we've ever had and he managed a whopping 2 playoff wins, yeah this guy was a genius. He was to blame for that failed season not G&G or anyone else in the organization. If you want them to find someone like him I would say be careful what you wish for. You will end up with someone that thinks their smarter and more important than the organization and neither bob mancini nor anyone else fits that catagory. I say good riddance to both edwards and mancini. However I don't want to hear anyone that likes this move complain that we are "unstable and continue to go through management changes" because you've been asking for it. I'm sorry but I think this is truly an ignorant statement. Mancini put together a very good team from virtually nothing. He practically stole good players from other teams and his Euro draft was outstanding. Using the fact that the team only one two playoff games is not really valid. Great teams get upset. That squad had a key injury (O'Marra), Ran into an incredibly hot goal tender (Juice) and witnessed the emergence and incredible offensive run by a D-Man (Godfrey). Add to that the fact that Daniels didn't play well. By your logic every time the Red Wings got knocked out of the playoffs in the first round (a few times in the last decade or so) the GM and coaches were to blame. I don't think most NHL Hockey minds would call Ken Holland and Scotty Bowman anything but the best at their jobs yet they lost after running into a hot team as well. Bottom line - that Spirit team had everything it needed. They put 3 players at the Team Canada World Junior Camp and two others at their respective national team camp. They had great role player (Haskin, Asselin, Bass, Etc) Not a bad squad at all. Would I have liked more playoff wins - certainly - but to blame Mancini is simply wrong. And even worse is to put Bob Mancini in the same category as Don Edwards. |
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Post by tiboomer on Oct 7, 2008 18:07:43 GMT -5
NewGuy, not do doubt your source, but I find it hard to believe the Spirit would offer McD 50G to come back. Is he really worth that much? I don't think so.
Regarding Mancini, I thought he did a pretty good job. I think based on his performance we should have kept him. I also heard that he had differences with management regarding the five players and the "situation" they got into. If what I heard was correct, I can understand why they let him go. Mancini was clearly much more approachable by the average fan than Edwards. In fact, my first impression of Edwards was not good.
The GM is responsible for getting the players the coach ask for (whether is it specific players, or any player that has the qualities the coach wants). It is the coach's job to turn those players into winners-not the GM. If Edwards had any class, he would have held that heated discussion behind closed doors and away from the players. Edward's stepping in the middle of a playing time disagreement and siding with the player sent the WRONG message to the entire team. And when you do that, its time for you to leave.
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Post by ohlfan06 on Oct 7, 2008 20:00:32 GMT -5
NewGuy, not do doubt your source, but I find it hard to believe the Spirit would offer McD 50G to come back. Is he really worth that much? I don't think so. quote] The Spirit did indeed offer McDonough money to come back, as for the 50 grand, that was a little high from reality. |
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Post by tuppura on Oct 7, 2008 20:01:17 GMT -5
"This does tell you how despicable Edwards behaved in every context, undermining a hard-working coach on every turn."
First, I know what I say on this context will be met with ridicule, and comments that will refute what I am about to tell you all. But I want you to believe what I say is true.....
To suggest for a second that Don Edwards was publically and privately undermining "hardworking" Todd Watson is a complete fabrication of the actual truth.
In fact, it was Todd Watson who took the role on to publically and privately underminig Don Edwards. We all know they hated each other...while Don Edwards kept a "business as usual" approach with the organization...the same could not be stated in the other direction....case in point.
Watson since DAY ONE has made it his mission to rid the organization of Don Edwards. He has lied, schemed and manipulated Goslin and Garber. To no end, he went on a merciless attack, taking shots at Don Edwards with Mark Constintaine, with League GM's, Coaches and his own players. This should be no surprise....hated Don Edwards...we all know.
But the extremes that this went on was pathetic....to the point that the Saginaw Spirit and the hockey operation have become the laughing stock of the OHL. You think having a coach call other coaches and GM's in the league and ask them not to deal with his GM is professional....embarrassing.
Now, having said that, Don Edwards was a complete and bumbling Inspector Clouseau like GM who had absolutely no clue and probably set the club back 2 years with ill advised trades, how he represented the organization, and most importantly for the trades he did not make- WE HAD ASSETS LAST YEAR!!! i.e. McDonough, Daniels, Combs, Asselin, Murzak, Williams...all whose stock was over the moon last season, and who brought the club back little. Already question marks are being raised over some of our young foundations....you know who I mean!
So we got rid of Don Edwards, and quickly..... so hats off to the Management for cutting the fat on that one...again NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN HIRED.
But we've turned over the keys to a man who made it his mission to embarrass the club...embarrass the GM and finally to a make play for his bosses job....at the cost of embarrassing our Spirit.
To me that's a weasal...no matter how you cut it. And with our fearless reporter telling it like it is (hint of sarcasm) no wonder so many on this board have bought into the "hard working" nose to the grindstone coach who deserves a chance to lead our organization. I say let all them all go, clean the slate and bring in a real hockey operations office....
This isn't Compuware - this isn't midget. This is the OHL....and its time we had a professional running our show!!!!
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Post by spiritfan8 on Oct 7, 2008 20:11:17 GMT -5
Wow. That is a really different take on the situation.
Topphatt, let me ask you this: in your take on the scenario, was Edwards justified in his complaints that "his" players were not seeing enough PT? Because with the excepton of Pleckaitis (jury still out on Eddie, and unless he turns out to be super, we got taken in that deal too, but I've been down that road...) I was not very impressed w/ the guys Edwards brought in. From stories and (sort of) from Constantine, I've gotten the impression that this all came to a head over PT Saturday night.
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Post by newguy on Oct 7, 2008 20:37:32 GMT -5
"This does tell you how despicable Edwards behaved in every context, undermining a hard-working coach on every turn." First, I know what I say on this context will be met with ridicule, and comments that will refute what I am about to tell you all. But I want you to believe what I say is true..... To suggest for a second that Don Edwards was publically and privately undermining "hardworking" Todd Watson is a complete fabrication of the actual truth. In fact, it was Todd Watson who took the role on to publically and privately underminig Don Edwards. We all know they hated each other...while Don Edwards kept a "business as usual" approach with the organization...the same could not be stated in the other direction....case in point. Watson since DAY ONE has made it his mission to rid the organization of Don Edwards. He has lied, schemed and manipulated Goslin and Garber. To no end, he went on a merciless attack, taking shots at Don Edwards with Mark Constintaine, with League GM's, Coaches and his own players. This should be no surprise....hated Don Edwards...we all know. But the extremes that this went on was pathetic....to the point that the Saginaw Spirit and the hockey operation have become the laughing stock of the OHL. You think having a coach call other coaches and GM's in the league and ask them not to deal with his GM is professional....embarrassing. Now, having said that, Don Edwards was a complete and bumbling Inspector Clouseau like GM who had absolutely no clue and probably set the club back 2 years with ill advised trades, how he represented the organization, and most importantly for the trades he did not make- WE HAD ASSETS LAST YEAR!!! i.e. McDonough, Daniels, Combs, Asselin, Murzak, Williams...all whose stock was over the moon last season, and who brought the club back little. Already question marks are being raised over some of our young foundations....you know who I mean! So we got rid of Don Edwards, and quickly..... so hats off to the Management for cutting the fat on that one...again NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN HIRED. But we've turned over the keys to a man who made it his mission to embarrass the club...embarrass the GM and finally to a make play for his bosses job....at the cost of embarrassing our Spirit. To me that's a weasal...no matter how you cut it. And with our fearless reporter telling it like it is (hint of sarcasm) no wonder so many on this board have bought into the "hard working" nose to the grindstone coach who deserves a chance to lead our organization. I say let all them all go, clean the slate and bring in a real hockey operations office.... This isn't tier II...this isn't midget. This is the OHL....and its time we had a professional running our show!!!! You know what? I won't ridicule you. Not one bit. I respect diverse opinions. And NONE of this is black and white...except Edwards' absolutely moronic and obnoxious and despicable actions and personality. And his utter lack of qualifications before his hiring and incompetence after his firing. But has Todd Watson acted totally professionally through all this? Absolutely not. Communication or lack thereof is a two way street. He didn't handle himself well, but I guess I'd argue, the situation was so incredibly bad (as it often is when we all encounter similar scenarios), that he probably has no regrets about Edwards not being there, but may have some regrets about the means to which he went to help him out the door. And the "hardworking" thing. I get where you're going. And I agree. I've taken shots at myself because I've claimed Mancini's teams worked just as hard and played "systems", and there aren't the systems here. It's just scare them and skate them hard until you get results. And that works. But not for as long as systems. Mancini IS the better coach. He's been a head coach much longer, and his results in developing NHLers at the college level speak for themselves. But Watson is the best they've got, and again, I wish him well. The whole thing was a mess, but topphat - I respect your point of view. I've got far more time for that than I did for those who blindly defended most things that Edwards did, and waved the pompoms and told us how we were missing out on the good things he was doing. No - we weren't. The organization couldn't have indicted him more than they did in their release. It was nearly an admission of incompetence that they brought him in. And looking in the mirror and admitting wrongdoing isn't something this organization does very well. I hope this will, i part, put an end to the credibility of some of the "tribesmen" of the "stop being negative" brigade. The words, "zero credibility" and "embarrassment" and "incompetent" are being used by more people, than those who AREN'T using them. The franchise is a laughingstock. And I hate it. I get no pleasure out of it. There's no plan. There's no direction. And the very thing the owners said they didn't want with Mancini, they have again now. I liken it to the Moe Mantha lie. If you STILL believe that Mantha wasn't retained because he wouldn't live in Saginaw, and not simply that Mancini didn't think he was a good enough coach -- then you people can have your own definition of the facts. And the rest of us will keep our definition. If you still believe Doug Lidster wasn't wrongfully dismissed and shamed to the point where he won't ever have a meaningful job in hockey again, then our definitions can be different. If you still believe Mancini was fired because he insisted either a) he had to be the head coach, or b) Ian Herbers had to be the head coach, then our definitions can be different. If you still believe that Richard Garber and Craig Goslin didn't badmouth trades that Mancini made to season ticket holders while GAMES were happening at the Dow, then our definitions can be different. If you still believe that the organization without Mancini's knowledge attempted to broker a financial deal with the girl's parents to have the charges in the case dropped regarding "The Fab Five", then our definitions can be different. All of these things happened or are true. I'd stake everything on it. Too many people know about them. None of the above makes me proud to be a Spirit fan. Lots of things do. These DON'T. For shame. This franchise has not been run with the honor, respect, and dignity that an OHL franchise deserves. And as I said before, and the arrows came out for me and others. WE DESERVE BETTER |
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Post by tuppura on Oct 7, 2008 20:55:31 GMT -5
Enough said. I like this move - it cleans the slate and allows Todd Watson to define his team, no excuses. My guess is he will run and hide behind a "youth movement" taking this team to a new low. He is already shipping out the OA's, 19 year olds etc. and sell it as the way to go.
While many will blindly buy this doctrine, the result will be a solid core of defense who will graduate before we can support them with goaltending and scoring.
And that bothers me...
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Post by newguy on Oct 7, 2008 21:25:42 GMT -5
Acquiring Skellett suggests otherwise....I don't think the fans and the owners have the stomach for a non-playoff year.
Adding Combs and Skellett is a big boost.
No 92s hurts, but Combs had refused to play another game in Saginaw if Edwards was back. Does anyone honestly believe there's not some symmetry in Edwards gone/Combs back.
There may still be a timetable to trade Combs, per his request, similar to Asselin's request that Edwards stomped all over, lied about, and then bullied his family over.
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