2008/09 Predictions

[sagspiritsfan]

You can say whatever you want about this years team, there is going to be an awful lot of offense missing that will need to be replaced and there are definitely alot of defenceman. Daniels will most likely be getting moved as well as one of our top defenceman who is a canadian and not an american player of course.

Bottom line: draft picks such as Fletcher, Ferguson, Craig and Soboczynski are why the Spirit have been a mediocre franchise at best. These players could still be on the team this year and last year and the Spirits lack of secondary scoring last year and this year could of been solved already. Or to make light of a Downie/Ryder potential trade which obviously if the Spirit were making a run for it could of happened, if the 4 players I mentioned had turned out some could of been traded in those deals or could of helped the team this past season and upcoming season.

Good teams/organizations build through the draft, that is the Spirits major downfall. Instead the spirit were left looking for players such as Neilly and Ogilvie when the Spirit should of had impact players to begin with but because of all the 2nd round blunders they havent.

[newguy]

Documentation? Like photocopies of a trade that never happened? Or....

I have a couple sources. You might have one too, BP. Or several. I can only tell you this. I have it on extremely good authority from a person who still works for the organization the trade at hand was..

Peterborough sends:

Daniel Ryder
Steve Downie

Saginaw sends:

Ryan McDonough
Nick Crawford
2nd round pick in 2008
3rd round pick in 2009
Patrick Asselin (at end of season to begin his OA year)

If you're calling "BS" on that, that's an opinion. I can't convince anyone it was on the table and the Petes already accepted it. But you can't tell me it's "BS". You can tell me you THINK it's BS.

Not quite sure what's hard to comprehend about that. Peterborough TRADED Downie to Kitchener and TRADED Ryder to Plymouth. Everyone and their brother knew they would do that.

Meantime, Peterborough gets a quality scorer in McDonough, potentially for 2 more seasons. They get an anchor for 3-4 years on the blueline in Crawford. They get an OA and potential captain in Asselin. And they get two high picks. That's why Peterborough according to my very reliable SOURCE....accepted the deal.

It was brought to ownership and Mancini had it vetoed by Garber. Garber was panicked that the team would be awful in 07-08, and you know what, they might have been.

But do you think they'd lose to the Soo with Downie and Ryder?

Then could they beat a sagging London team with Downie and Ryder?

Hey, we'll never know. It's fun to wonder.

It would have solved Asselin's problem. He never wanted to come back. He never wanted to be captain. He was promised by ownership that he'd be dealt over the summer. Then was promised he'd be dealt by the end of training camp. I think that's been pretty well documented given the acrimony between Don Edwards and the Asselin family.

This stuff happens all the time. Two teams traded for Eric Lindros. Eight teams put in offers back in the summer of 1992. The Wings ALSO put an offer in on Lindros when he was traded from Philly in 2001, though I don't recall what it was. I'd estimate that of every trade that gets consummated there are 3 times the number that get vetoed or snagged at the last minute. Not sure why it would blow anyone's mind that this trade was sitting there. I can't even BLAME Garber for stopping it. They would have been really bare bones last year and no shot of making the playoffs, but that's what teams do when they "go for it".

So when Mancini gets accused of "emptying the cupboard", I think people exaggerate. Had he made this trade, then it's hard to argue and if Garber knew he was going to fire Mancini no matter what because of the personal conflict between the two, and not how the team did, then I probably do what Garber did and nix that deal, because Richard would have been the one left holding the bag with a team winning about fifteen games and no playoff games last year. So they won double the regular season games and SAME amount of playoff games.

[bpfox]

For the record, I never mentioned any posts in particular as being BS. It's interesting to me, however, who was first to defend themselves against the charge. Just so you know, the Ryder/Downie thing wasn't even first on my BS list because the list of non-trades or potential trades, or trades that were talked about, but never happenned is pretty much a yearly occurance. They cannot, and should not, be looked at as a "what if" because there is more to it than just "this guy for that guy". It also does no good to look back, with hind sight, and try to figure out how a trade might have turned out. Just look at the trades that were made, then look how things turned out with the guys they had in Mancini's final season. So much talent, so little to show for it.

For now I will let you all try and figure out what I think is BS and what isn't. Let the next guilty party speak up.

[newguy]

Amusing. I mean that as a compliment, BP. I did laugh. I'm not sure what I'm guilty of, but I'm sure someone will inform me.

As for it not doing any good to look back on what trades weren't made, I think that's half the fun of it. Would the Tigers have made the playoffs if they'd traded for another starter at last year's trade deadline? Do the Wings win the Cup without the Stuart deal? I think those things are fun to debate. It's a bit more creative than just the dry analytical stuff. It makes it more fun than conversations like this:

Q: Hey, what did you think of Saginaw losing to the Soo in 6 games in 2007?

A: They lost in 6 games.

Q: Yes, but what did you think of the series?

A: That's not for me to judge. I just know they lost.

Fun stuff. Anyway, you're right, it was a disaster losing in six games when all those players were brought in. And I think it's fair for ownership to have rejected the deal that the Petes and Jeff Twohey had already agreed upon. As for why they lost, where do you start and who do you blame.

McNeill had a hand injury and it obviously limited his effectiveness
O'Marra broke his leg in Game 3
Daniels was petrified of Godfrey's shot
Maunu was out of shape and half the player he was the year before
Hotham was bad in his own end
Pyatt was only average in the series. Don't let the points fool you. He had 5 of those points in Game 5 blowout, I believe.
McDonough didn't score a goal
Asselin didn't score a goal
Mursak scored only one goal
Berard didn't score a goal

If you're the GM or coach, is there any way you can plan for the aforementioned 10 KEY players having some sort of stumble or another? No. But he's the one who takes the fall.

I will say this, Mancini's biggest problem was if he and the players had no confidence in Ryan Daniels, they never should have kept him past the trade deadline. They had to ride him all the way. Perron may have been a nice kid, but he wasn't going to take the team anywhere. Tried hard, but minimal skills.

I get it, it's the way the business works but some of the moves he made on his own, some of the draft picks that the Spirit fumbled on are all their own fault, and some of the trades made were because of the incident with the "Fab Five". I mean, let's not pretend that those five players could have just kept playing hockey together like nothing happened. They had to break up some semblance of that group. I think there would have been even more heat on the hockey club had they not done so. That's an opinion this time around.

[bpfox]

Just for the record, I don't disagree with anything in your last post....Peace.

[spiritfan8]

Jul 20, 2008 15:55:53 GMT -5 bpfox said:

Keep in mind here folks that our favorite Saginaw News reporter comes to this site to get his facts. If he even reads this last page and takes even 5% of it as factually accurate, we are in big trouble. I for one sure would like to see some documentation on some of the bs being poster here. All I can say is wow.

I personally would love to see Constantine take material from this, because it would pretty much prove once and for all where he gets most of his material.
But at any rate, I'll take a pass on censoring my posts on the off-chance that MC might find them newsworthy..............

At least we are talking about hockey. Thank God.

[newguy]

Thanks BP. Appreciated. And it would be ok if you didn't either, but I bet you know that.

As for Constantine, he seems to tow the party line a lot more than he used to. I thought for the first four seasons or so, he really questioned team management and why they did this and how they did that, but he seems firmly affixed in Goslin's back pocket now. I'm just guessing Goslin speaks more to him than Garber does.

Although he did write the piece quoting Asselin's dad last year which did make the organization look pretty bad in that they'd deceived the Asselins a fair bit concerning promises that were made to him and what not.

That surprises me because say what you will about the owners, I think they treat their players with class, I really do. Maybe they decided they had to get somewhat tougher with them last season and that it might have been too "country club-ish". Who can say? But Watson is as no-nonsense as it gets, so it would seem and Edwards rubs an awful lot of people the wrong way, so it is told. But then again so do the Hunters. Then again, Peter Deboer had his enemies. I'm sure Dave Barr did and Mike Foligno does.

I just hope they've come a long way from Jean-Michel Rizk's dad calling up Richard Garber and telling him to tell Rosie to play his kid more in the 1st season. Let's face it, any beat writer better than Constantine would have written one hell of a book on what's happened in the first six years of the Saginaw Spirit. It'd be a GREAT read!!!

[spiritfan8]

"Let's face it, any beat writer better than Constantine would have written one hell of a book on what's happened in the first six years of the Saginaw Spirit. It'd be a GREAT read!!!"

I can't believe anyone who has ever posted on this forum would disagree with this!!!

[darrenpangfan]

I don't mean to step on anybody's toes but I have to question one thing about this trade with Peterborough from 2 seasons ago that never happened.

I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) but isn't there a rule in the Ontario Hockey League that allows 1st round draft picks to only be traded between January 1st and the trade deadline of their rookie year. If this is true, then Saginaw would have had to wait until January to pull the trigger on the trade with Peterborough involving Nick Crawford.

The Ryan O'Marra trade took place at Thanksgiving so I guess what I am asking is would Saginaw have made the trade with Peterborough instead of the Ryan O'Marra trade or in addition to the Ryan O'Marra trade?

As for my take on Constantine, I can only wait for his next article where he reminds us again that Ryan Daniels will be traded by the Saginaw Spirit. Give me an article with some solid information like this one that I found on mlive.com by Pete Krupsky from the Plymouth Whalers. It is from early July, but I think it has some good information in it.

blog.mlive.com/whaletales/2008/07/an_early_look_at_plymouths_div.html

[spiritfan8]

Another example of wanting to burst into tears when I read the excellent coverage of another team by their writer....................May I offer the hope that the new and improved web site has someone with talent and determination writing articles such as this one??

[newguy]

Two things..

The Peterborough trade would literally have been days if not hours before Downie was dealt to Kitchener. A few days later Ryder went to Plymouth.

So yes, O'Marra was a done deal long before the Peterborough deal would have happened. I almost forgot. Chappell was in the trade. The significance may have been that would have gotten rid of all FIVE of, the "Fabulous Five" involved in the "incident".

As for the Whale Tales thing, their broadcaster and media relations guy, Pete Krupsky writes those. He isn't a beat writer. The Whalers really have no newspaper coverage, so careful what you wish for. They get no attention, win, lose, or draw from the local media.

He's basically the equivalent of Saginaw's Bill Konesko, only he knows much more about hockey (no offence Bill, you'd probably agree with that, it's not a prerequisite) and isn't a broadcaster.

But, yes, the Whalers website keeps their fans a lot more up to date on transactions and game stories and things around the league than Saginaw's. Saginaw's is a real poor one, using very little audio or video. Saginaw's media relations director doesn't TRAVEL with the team. At all. Does that make sense to you? So that's why no audio, video, etc. like there was in the days when either Knowles or Brady would travel.

I was just going to use the words "Ficcarelli" and "internet" in the same sentence and then burst out laughing. Why, I have no idea but I don't think the two are that compatible..

[spiritfan8]

I could live with poor newspaper coverage--actually, now that I think of it, I AM living with poor newspaper coverage, but I digress--a la the Whalers, who barely got a mention in the metro media for winning the OHL Cup. I could do this if the Spirit website had a writer whose job was covering the team and the league, like Krupsky does. Which is why I am anxious to see the new and improved, etc............

[donjohnson]

Pop Quiz:

What's more ironic?

1) That a thread entitled "2008-09 Predictions" has become a thread about the past

or

2) That a poster named "newguy" writes and structures his posts like an old poster from here?

YOU MAKE THE CALL

[SaginawGensFan]

You win the prize, don! Along with the handful of others who have IM'd me with their complaints about certain people signing back up with new names/e-mail addresses.

[spiritfan8]

Are we going to go through this whole thing again??

"People, people......can't we all just get along?"